Discussion:
minimal set theory
(too old to reply)
Graham Cooper
2012-02-16 23:00:00 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure that this is a very unambiguous query,
so please be gentle anfd as helpful as possible.
The motivation for my query is the apparent circularity in trying
to found set theory on a model theory that is itself a set theory,
though metamathematical and much smaller than ZFC itself or even Z.
What is the *minimal* set theory required to formalize the ideas
of models (of FOL theories), satisfaction, soundness, and so forth?
Presumably it doesn't require power set, but needs at least unions
and finitely-adic cross products. How much of separation is needed?
TIA,   -- baffled Bill
** Set theory is a shotgun marriage between powerset & well ordering.
You don't need a CONSTRUCTABLE SET UNIVERSE at all!

MATHEMATICS ITSELF IS NOT SOME PHANTOM PYRAMID of ladders of ordinals.

You can avoid Russell's Paradox in a modified NAIVE SET THEORY where
LOGICAL_CONSTRUCTIONS must be PROVEN or at least PROVABLE!

ZFC does NOT HAVE AN AXIOM_OF_SPECIFICATION!

Separation is an AXIOM_OF_SUBSET_SPECIFICATION

The axiom of SPECIFICATION is really just SUBSET SPECIFICATION.
You NAME the SUBSET Y according to the definition of it's elements
(ONCE THE SUPERSET Z ALREADY EXISTS)

A(z): A(p1,p2..pn):
E(y): A(x): x e y <-> (x e z & P(x,y,p1,p2..pn))

P is a predicate (which can be recursively defined at a lower level)
in ZFC

***

Before the AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION was NAIVE SET THEORY
According to naive set theory, any definable collection is a set.

E(y):A(x): x e y <-> P(x)

This yields an INCONSISTENT theory since replacing P(x) with x ~e x
yields

z e z <-> z ~e z

***

So SPECIFICATION resolves Russell Set and ZFC is CONSISTENT for now.
But: the paradox of Russells Set is just pushed down one level!

***

Here in DCPROOF the Russell Set is proven to not exist.

Here we prove that the set of all sets that are not elements of
themselves does not exist.

Prove: ~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
Proof
-----
Suppose to the contrary...
1 EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
Premise
Define: r
2 ALL(x):[x e r <=> ~x e x]
E Spec, 1
Apply the definition of r to itself - CONTRADICTION
3 r e r <=> ~r e r
U Spec, 2
As Required:
4 ~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
4 Conclusion, 1

*****************************************

OK, remember that?

~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]

There does NOT EXIST a set R of all x that are not elements of x.

****************************************

Here's another proof in ZFC

Example 8: The Paradox of the Universal Set

-------------------------------------------

The so-called Universal Set is the set of all things.
Here we will show that, it cannot exist.

Prove: ~EXIST(s):[Set(s) & ALL(a):a e s]
Prove: ALL(u):~[Set(u) & ALL(a):a e u]
Suppose...
1 Set(u) & ALL(a):a e u
Premise
2 Set(u)
Split, 1
3 ALL(a):a e u
Split, 1
Apply the Subset Axiom for u *AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION*
4 EXIST(s):[Set(s) & ALL(a):[a e s <=> a e u & ~a e a]]
Subset, 2

Define: r, the set of all things that are not elements of themselves.

This results in the SAME CONTRADICTION that disproved Russell Sets
before!
3 r e r <=> ~r e r

So, the NON-EXISTENT SET R is DEFINED USING AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION

as a subset of THE UNIVERSAL SET U

and it "double-proves" that the set U cannot exist either!

****************************************************************

http://tinyurl.com/new-set-theory

A SIMPLE SET THEORY (WITH NO GODEL STATEMENTS)


According to naive set theory, any definable collection is a set.

E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x)

This yields an INCONSISTENT theory since replacing

P(x) with x ~e x

results in the contradiction by forming Russell's Set

z e z <-> z ~e z

***

E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x) ----- NAIVE SET THEORY

PESSIMIST SET THEORY
[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)] & PRV[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]

In PESSIMIST Set Theory, Russell's Set and the Axiom Of Infinity and
Godel

Statements cannot stratify as a premise as they are not provable by
PRV().

PRV(c) <-> c v (E(a) E(b) a&b->c & PRV(a) & PRV(b))

PRV() is thought to be unprogrammable in conventional logic, but in
PESSIMIST SET THEORY and OPTIMIST SET THEORY Godel Statements will not
even stratify *they have no proof* so theories that only stratify
given PRV() are 'bona-fide' consistent!

G <-> !PRV(G)
= ! (G v (E(a) a->G & PRV(a)))
-> ! (G v FALSE)
-> !G

CONTRADICTION
NOT(PRV(G))

NO GODEL STATEMENTS!

***

OPTIMIST SET THEORY
[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)] & !PRV[!E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]

In OPTIMIST Set Theory, the Axiom Of Infinity can stratify as a
premise as there is no proof otherwise PRV(~INF).

ZFC AXIOM OF INFINITY
E(y) A(x) 0 e y & (x e y -> S(y) e y)

------------------------

In OPTIMIST SET THEORY (OST)

[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)] & !PRV[!E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]
PREMISE: E(INF) A(x) x e INF <-> P(x, INF)
& ~PRV(~E(INF) A(x) x e INF <-> P(x, INF) )

ASSUME: ~PRV(~INF) *there is no proof INF does not exist
-> E(INF) A(x) x e INF <-> P(x, INF) #1

where
P(x, INF) <-> (x = 0) v (E(z) x = S(z) & P(z, INF))
e.g. P(3, INF)
--> P(2, INF)
--> P(1, INF)
--> P(0, INF)
--> TRUE

3 e INF <-> P(3, INF) x=3 -> #1
3 e INF <-> TRUE
3 e INF

INF is just the infinite set N {1,2,3,...}

Rather than use a special axiom Infinity is just defined using an
induction predicate.

P(x, INF) <-> (x = 0) v (E(z) x = S(z) & P(z, INF))

***

Herc
--
There are 2 types of Naive ~ Optimism and Pessimism
DonH
2012-02-17 18:19:53 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure that this is a very unambiguous query,
so please be gentle anfd as helpful as possible.
The motivation for my query is the apparent circularity in trying
to found set theory on a model theory that is itself a set theory,
though metamathematical and much smaller than ZFC itself or even Z.
What is the *minimal* set theory required to formalize the ideas
of models (of FOL theories), satisfaction, soundness, and so forth?
Presumably it doesn't require power set, but needs at least unions
and finitely-adic cross products. How much of separation is needed?
TIA, -- baffled Bill
** Set theory is a shotgun marriage between powerset & well ordering.
You don't need a CONSTRUCTABLE SET UNIVERSE at all!

MATHEMATICS ITSELF IS NOT SOME PHANTOM PYRAMID of ladders of ordinals.

You can avoid Russell's Paradox in a modified NAIVE SET THEORY where
LOGICAL_CONSTRUCTIONS must be PROVEN or at least PROVABLE!

ZFC does NOT HAVE AN AXIOM_OF_SPECIFICATION!

Separation is an AXIOM_OF_SUBSET_SPECIFICATION

The axiom of SPECIFICATION is really just SUBSET SPECIFICATION.
You NAME the SUBSET Y according to the definition of it's elements
(ONCE THE SUPERSET Z ALREADY EXISTS)

A(z): A(p1,p2..pn):
E(y): A(x): x e y <-> (x e z & P(x,y,p1,p2..pn))

P is a predicate (which can be recursively defined at a lower level)
in ZFC

***

Before the AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION was NAIVE SET THEORY
According to naive set theory, any definable collection is a set.

E(y):A(x): x e y <-> P(x)

This yields an INCONSISTENT theory since replacing P(x) with x ~e x
yields

z e z <-> z ~e z

***

So SPECIFICATION resolves Russell Set and ZFC is CONSISTENT for now.
But: the paradox of Russells Set is just pushed down one level!

***

Here in DCPROOF the Russell Set is proven to not exist.

Here we prove that the set of all sets that are not elements of
themselves does not exist.

Prove: ~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
Proof
-----
Suppose to the contrary...
1 EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
Premise
Define: r
2 ALL(x):[x e r <=> ~x e x]
E Spec, 1
Apply the definition of r to itself - CONTRADICTION
3 r e r <=> ~r e r
U Spec, 2
As Required:
4 ~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
4 Conclusion, 1

*****************************************

OK, remember that?

~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]

There does NOT EXIST a set R of all x that are not elements of x.

****************************************

Here's another proof in ZFC

Example 8: The Paradox of the Universal Set

-------------------------------------------

The so-called Universal Set is the set of all things.
Here we will show that, it cannot exist.

Prove: ~EXIST(s):[Set(s) & ALL(a):a e s]
Prove: ALL(u):~[Set(u) & ALL(a):a e u]
Suppose...
1 Set(u) & ALL(a):a e u
Premise
2 Set(u)
Split, 1
3 ALL(a):a e u
Split, 1
Apply the Subset Axiom for u *AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION*
4 EXIST(s):[Set(s) & ALL(a):[a e s <=> a e u & ~a e a]]
Subset, 2

Define: r, the set of all things that are not elements of themselves.

This results in the SAME CONTRADICTION that disproved Russell Sets
before!
3 r e r <=> ~r e r

So, the NON-EXISTENT SET R is DEFINED USING AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION

as a subset of THE UNIVERSAL SET U

and it "double-proves" that the set U cannot exist either!

****************************************************************

http://tinyurl.com/new-set-theory

A SIMPLE SET THEORY (WITH NO GODEL STATEMENTS)


According to naive set theory, any definable collection is a set.

E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x)

This yields an INCONSISTENT theory since replacing

P(x) with x ~e x

results in the contradiction by forming Russell's Set

z e z <-> z ~e z

***

E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x) ----- NAIVE SET THEORY

PESSIMIST SET THEORY
[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)] & PRV[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]

In PESSIMIST Set Theory, Russell's Set and the Axiom Of Infinity and
Godel

Statements cannot stratify as a premise as they are not provable by
PRV().

PRV(c) <-> c v (E(a) E(b) a&b->c & PRV(a) & PRV(b))

PRV() is thought to be unprogrammable in conventional logic, but in
PESSIMIST SET THEORY and OPTIMIST SET THEORY Godel Statements will not
even stratify *they have no proof* so theories that only stratify
given PRV() are 'bona-fide' consistent!

G <-> !PRV(G)
= ! (G v (E(a) a->G & PRV(a)))
-> ! (G v FALSE)
-> !G

CONTRADICTION
NOT(PRV(G))

NO GODEL STATEMENTS!

***

OPTIMIST SET THEORY
[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)] & !PRV[!E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]

In OPTIMIST Set Theory, the Axiom Of Infinity can stratify as a
premise as there is no proof otherwise PRV(~INF).

ZFC AXIOM OF INFINITY
E(y) A(x) 0 e y & (x e y -> S(y) e y)

------------------------

In OPTIMIST SET THEORY (OST)

[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)] & !PRV[!E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]
PREMISE: E(INF) A(x) x e INF <-> P(x, INF)
& ~PRV(~E(INF) A(x) x e INF <-> P(x, INF) )

ASSUME: ~PRV(~INF) *there is no proof INF does not exist
-> E(INF) A(x) x e INF <-> P(x, INF) #1

where
P(x, INF) <-> (x = 0) v (E(z) x = S(z) & P(z, INF))
e.g. P(3, INF)
--> P(2, INF)
--> P(1, INF)
--> P(0, INF)
--> TRUE

3 e INF <-> P(3, INF) x=3 -> #1
3 e INF <-> TRUE
3 e INF

INF is just the infinite set N {1,2,3,...}

Rather than use a special axiom Infinity is just defined using an
induction predicate.

P(x, INF) <-> (x = 0) v (E(z) x = S(z) & P(z, INF))

***

Herc
--
There are 2 types of Naive ~ Optimism and Pessimism

# When I was a kid, I didn't hear of "sets" at school, there was only the
definition and classification of things - and a "class" of objects had some
common attribute(s).
What then is a set? It is a group of objects which may, or may not,
have things in common - a bit like contents of box of junk in the attic, or
goods on a jumble sale at the church fete.
A set is a mental concept, and has no reality apart from that.
You can count the number of objects in a set, but a set can only be a
member of itself if lumped into all the non-set aspects of the universe.
This may be seen as highly sophisticated, or road to madness, depending on
viewpoint.
Words are human artifacts which we apes like to monkey around with.
Most inhabitants of lunatic asylums live in a (mental)
world-of-their-own. Wanna join?
Graham Cooper
2012-02-18 00:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Cooper
I'm not sure that this is a very unambiguous query,
so please be gentle anfd as helpful as possible.
The motivation for my query is the apparent circularity in trying
to found set theory on a model theory that is itself a set theory,
though metamathematical and much smaller than ZFC itself or even Z.
What is the *minimal* set theory required to formalize the ideas
of models (of FOL theories), satisfaction, soundness, and so forth?
Presumably it doesn't require power set, but needs at least unions
and finitely-adic cross products. How much of separation is needed?
TIA, -- baffled Bill
** Set theory is a shotgun marriage between powerset & well ordering.
You don't need a CONSTRUCTABLE SET UNIVERSE at all!
MATHEMATICS ITSELF IS NOT SOME PHANTOM PYRAMID of ladders of ordinals.
You can avoid Russell's Paradox in a modified NAIVE SET THEORY where
LOGICAL_CONSTRUCTIONS must be PROVEN or at least PROVABLE!
ZFC does NOT HAVE AN AXIOM_OF_SPECIFICATION!
Separation is an AXIOM_OF_SUBSET_SPECIFICATION
The axiom of SPECIFICATION is really just SUBSET SPECIFICATION.
You NAME the SUBSET Y according to the definition of it's elements
(ONCE THE SUPERSET Z ALREADY EXISTS)
E(y): A(x): x e y <-> (x e z & P(x,y,p1,p2..pn))
P is a predicate (which can be recursively defined at a lower level)
in ZFC
***
Before the AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION was NAIVE SET THEORY
According to naive set theory, any definable collection is a set.
E(y):A(x): x e y <-> P(x)
This yields an INCONSISTENT theory since replacing P(x) with x ~e x
yields
z e z <-> z ~e z
***
So SPECIFICATION resolves Russell Set and ZFC is CONSISTENT for now.
But: the paradox of Russells Set is just pushed down one level!
***
Here in DCPROOF the Russell Set is proven to not exist.
Here we prove that the set of all sets that are not elements of
themselves does not exist.
Prove: ~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
     Proof
     -----
     Suppose to the contrary...
      1     EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
            Premise
     Define: r
      2     ALL(x):[x e r <=> ~x e x]
            E Spec, 1
     Apply the definition of r to itself - CONTRADICTION
      3     r e r <=> ~r e r
            U Spec, 2
4     ~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
      4 Conclusion, 1
*****************************************
OK, remember that?
~EXIST(s):ALL(x):[x e s <=> ~x e x]
There does NOT EXIST a set R of all x that are not elements of x.
****************************************
Here's another proof in ZFC
Example 8: The Paradox of the Universal Set
-------------------------------------------
The so-called Universal Set is the set of all things.
Here we will show that, it cannot exist.
Prove: ~EXIST(s):[Set(s) & ALL(a):a e s]
     Prove: ALL(u):~[Set(u) & ALL(a):a e u]
     Suppose...
      1     Set(u) & ALL(a):a e u
            Premise
      2     Set(u)
            Split, 1
      3     ALL(a):a e u
            Split, 1
Apply the Subset Axiom for u   *AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION*
4     EXIST(s):[Set(s) & ALL(a):[a e s <=> a e u & ~a e a]]
       Subset, 2
Define: r, the set of all things that are not elements of themselves.
This results in the SAME CONTRADICTION that disproved Russell Sets
before!
      3     r e r <=> ~r e r
So, the NON-EXISTENT SET R is DEFINED USING AXIOM OF SPECIFICATION
as a subset of THE UNIVERSAL SET U
and it "double-proves" that the set U cannot exist either!
****************************************************************
http://tinyurl.com/new-set-theory
A SIMPLE SET THEORY (WITH NO GODEL STATEMENTS)
According to naive set theory, any definable collection is a set.
E(y) A(x)  x e y  <->  P(x)
This yields an INCONSISTENT theory since replacing
P(x) with x ~e x
results in the contradiction by forming Russell's Set
z e z <-> z ~e z
***
E(y) A(x)  x e y  <->  P(x)  ----- NAIVE SET THEORY
PESSIMIST SET THEORY
[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]  &  PRV[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]
In PESSIMIST Set Theory, Russell's Set and the Axiom Of Infinity and
Godel
Statements cannot stratify as a premise as they are not provable by
PRV().
PRV(c)  <->  c v (E(a) E(b) a&b->c & PRV(a) & PRV(b))
PRV() is thought to be unprogrammable in conventional logic, but in
PESSIMIST SET THEORY and OPTIMIST SET THEORY Godel Statements will not
even stratify *they have no proof* so theories that only stratify
given PRV() are 'bona-fide' consistent!
G <-> !PRV(G)
= ! (G v (E(a) a->G & PRV(a)))
-> ! (G v FALSE)
-> !G
CONTRADICTION
NOT(PRV(G))
NO GODEL STATEMENTS!
***
OPTIMIST SET THEORY
[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]  &  !PRV[!E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]
In OPTIMIST Set Theory, the Axiom Of Infinity can stratify as a
premise as there is no proof otherwise PRV(~INF).
ZFC AXIOM OF INFINITY
E(y) A(x)  0 e y  &  (x e y  ->  S(y) e y)
------------------------
In OPTIMIST SET THEORY (OST)
[E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]  &  !PRV[!E(y) A(x) x e y <-> P(x,y)]
PREMISE: E(INF) A(x)  x e INF  <->  P(x, INF)
   & ~PRV(~E(INF) A(x)  x e INF  <->  P(x, INF) )
ASSUME: ~PRV(~INF)   *there is no proof INF does not exist
-> E(INF) A(x)  x e INF  <->   P(x, INF)   #1
where
P(x, INF) <-> (x = 0) v (E(z) x = S(z) & P(z, INF))
e.g. P(3, INF)
--> P(2, INF)
--> P(1, INF)
--> P(0, INF)
--> TRUE
3 e INF  <->  P(3, INF)    x=3 -> #1
3 e INF  <->  TRUE
3 e INF
INF is just the infinite set N {1,2,3,...}
Rather than use a special axiom Infinity is just defined using an
induction predicate.
P(x, INF) <-> (x = 0) v (E(z) x = S(z) & P(z, INF))
***
Herc
--
There are 2 types of Naive ~ Optimism and Pessimism
# When I was a kid, I didn't hear of "sets" at school, there was only the
definition and classification of things - and a "class" of objects had some
common attribute(s).
    What then is a set?  It is a group of objects which may, or may not,
have things in common - a bit like contents of box of junk in the attic, or
goods on a jumble sale at the church fete.
    A set is a mental concept, and has no reality apart from that.
    You can count the number of objects in a set, but a set can only be a
member of itself if lumped into all the non-set aspects of the universe.
This may be seen as highly sophisticated, or road to madness, depending on
viewpoint.
    Words are human artifacts which we apes like to monkey around with.
    Most inhabitants of lunatic asylums live in a (mental)
world-of-their-own.  Wanna join?
You can always work with Natural numbers and the single Relation "e"
for a more concrete method.

TABLE_e
Element | Set
1 1
2 1
123 345
...


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Herc

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