Discussion:
The three classical tests of General Relativity.
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Ned Latham
2020-04-14 09:54:04 UTC
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From http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/redshift_white_dwarfs

"One of the three classical tests for general relativity is the
gravitational redshift of light or other forms of electromagnetic
radiation. However, in contrast to the other two tests - the
gravitational deflection of light and the relativistic perihelion
shift - you do not need general relativity to derive the correct
prediction for the gravitational redshift. A combination of Newtonian
gravity, a particle theory of light, and the weak equivalence
principle (gravitating mass equals inertial mass) suffices. It is,
therefore, perhaps best regarded as a test of that principle rather
than as a test of general relativity."

That last sentence must surely be a non-contentious way of saying
that the gravitational red shift is not a definitive test of general
relativity.

The writer has apparently not considered that the same combination of
factors applies also to the gravitational deflection of light, which
implies that it too is not a definitive test of general relativity.

With two of the three classical tests of GR thus seen as inconclusive,
the question arises as to whether a similar combination could provide
the correct prediction for the relativistic perihelion shift. At first
glance, the idea would seem preposterous: a particle theory of light
must surely eschew Lorentz transforms and Einstein's second postulate,
and in that case an alternative way to the relationships implied by
the gamma() factor must be found. But as it happens, there is one:
postulating that gravity propagates through a field the energy of
which varies as the gamma() factor gives us F = G M m / d² * gamma(v),
which does indeed correctly predict the relativistic perihelion shift.

And yes, the above *is* speculative, but if the math produces the
correct prediction, can it be regarded as fanciful, or in some way
illegitimate? Shouldn't we keep such alternatives in mind when theory
is being tested?
Tom Roberts
2020-04-15 15:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ned Latham
From http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/redshift_white_dwarfs
"One of the three classical tests for general relativity is the
gravitational redshift of light or other forms of electromagnetic
radiation. However, in contrast to the other two tests - the
gravitational deflection of light and the relativistic perihelion
shift - you do not need general relativity to derive the correct
prediction for the gravitational redshift. A combination of Newtonian
gravity, a particle theory of light, and the weak equivalence
principle (gravitating mass equals inertial mass) suffices. It is,
therefore, perhaps best regarded as a test of that principle rather
than as a test of general relativity."
But that combination is not a complete theory, it is a mash-up of some
notions that happens to work for this specific physical situation. For a
different physical situation you will need a DIFFERENT mash-up of
DIFFERENT notions.

General Relativity, on the other hand, is a complete whole and can be
applied unchanged to many different physical situations.
Post by Ned Latham
That last sentence must surely be a non-contentious way of saying
that the gravitational red shift is not a definitive test of general
relativity.
Hmmmm. It is a test that could potentially have refuted GR, but didn't.
That is as "definitive" as it gets in science.
Post by Ned Latham
The writer has apparently not considered that the same combination of
factors applies also to the gravitational deflection of light, which
implies that it too is not a definitive test of general relativity.
Hmmmm. It is also a test that could potentially have refuted GR, but
didn't. That is as "definitive" as it gets in science.
Post by Ned Latham
With two of the three classical tests of GR thus seen as inconclusive,
"Inconclusive" is an outrageous overstatement. Each of them conclusively
did not refute GR -- in science that is what matters.

You have the fantasy that there should be a single theory of physics. In
fact the world does not work that way, and there are often/usually
multiple theories that are consistent with a given set of experiments.

For instance, there is an infinite class of theories each of which is
experimentally indistinguishable from SR -- every experimental test of
SR that confirms it is also a test of every one of these alternates that
confirms each of them. Almost nobody knows about them, as they are
intellectually unattractive, involve untestable hypotheses, and are much
more difficult to use for calculations than SR. But no experiment has
ever refuted any of them (within their domain).

Bottom line: we humans cannot know if our theories are "how the world
actually works", or are merely approximations that are valid where we
happen to have tested them. In any given domain there can be multiple
theories that work equally well, and no experiment within that domain
can distinguish among them.

For instance, in our daily lives Newtonian mechanics and
GR work equally well. GR, of course, has a much larger
domain in which it is valid, but experiments on the scale
of our everyday lives cannot distinguish them.

Physicists are very familiar with this; apparently it is news to you.

[Note that measurement resolutions and errorbars are a
key aspect of this.]
Post by Ned Latham
the question arises [...]
You put together a bunch of technical words in a way that doesn't make
sense. Present a THEORY, not a hodge-podge of sound bites. Use that
theory to predict the outcomes of several relevant experiments and
demonstrate agreement. Until you do that, you have nothing worthwhile to
anybody but yourself.
Post by Ned Latham
And yes, the above *is* speculative, but if the math produces the
correct prediction, can it be regarded as fanciful, or in some way
illegitimate? Shouldn't we keep such alternatives in mind when theory
is being tested?
Hmmmm. When testing SR it is not useful at all to "keep in mind" that
class of alternate theories mentioned above. We know this because that
class is well defined.

But before anyone can "keep in mind" your notions, they must be
presented in a coherent and systematic way. A bunch of USENET posts
displaying profound ignorance of basic physics simply does not induce
anyone to take anything you write seriously.

Tom Roberts
Ned Latham
2020-04-15 16:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Roberts
Post by Ned Latham
From http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/
redshift_white_dwarfs
"One of the three classical tests for general relativity is the
gravitational redshift of light or other forms of electromagnetic
radiation. However, in contrast to the other two tests - the
gravitational deflection of light and the relativistic perihelion
shift - you do not need general relativity to derive the correct
prediction for the gravitational redshift. A combination of
Newtonian gravity, a particle theory of light, and the weak
equivalence principle (gravitating mass equals inertial mass)
suffices. It is, therefore, perhaps best regarded as a test of
that principle rather than as a test of general relativity."
But that combination is not a complete theory, it is a mash-up
of some notions that happens to work for this specific physical
situation. For a different physical situation you will need a
DIFFERENT mash-up of DIFFERENT notions.
That's *my* criticism of the so-called particle models and theories
that are put up for comparison with GR and with SR. AFAIC, they're
no better than straw man constructs.
Post by Tom Roberts
General Relativity, on the other hand, is a complete whole and can be
applied unchanged to many different physical situations.
Within its domain. So too are the theory and the models in my
"A Fundamental Matter".
Post by Tom Roberts
Post by Ned Latham
That last sentence must surely be a non-contentious way of
saying that the gravitational red shift is not a definitive
test of general relativity.
Hmmmm. It is a test that could potentially have refuted GR,
but didn't. That is as "definitive" as it gets in science.
No. Refuting one of two well-considered alternatives would be
definitive.
Post by Tom Roberts
Post by Ned Latham
The writer has apparently not considered that the same
combination of factors applies also to the gravitational
deflection of light, which implies that it too is not a
definitive test of general relativity.
Hmmmm. It is also a test that could potentially have refuted GR,
but didn't. That is as "definitive" as it gets in science.
No. As above.
Post by Tom Roberts
Post by Ned Latham
With two of the three classical tests of GR thus seen as
inconclusive,
"Inconclusive" is an outrageous overstatement. Each of them
conclusively did not refute GR -- in science that is what
matters.
No. The alternative has not been refuted. By your definition it
too is confirmed.
Post by Tom Roberts
You have the fantasy that there should be a single theory of physics.
Again you speak in complete ignorance of the fact. And you have the
nerve to accuse me of making things up. Will you ever develop some
integrity?

----preaching snipped----
Post by Tom Roberts
You put together a bunch of technical words in a way that doesn't
make sense. Present a THEORY, not a hodge-podge of sound bites.
You've been refusing - since when, 2015? to read the theory that is
presented at
http://www.users.on.net/~nedlatham/Science/Physics/index.html
Now you have the hide to pretend that "present a theory" is what
I have *not* done?
Post by Tom Roberts
Use that theory to predict the outcomes of several relevant
experiments and demonstrate agreement. Until you do that,
you have nothing worthwhile to anybody but yourself.
I see you haven't responded to my question in the thread "The Prism
Effect". My prediction is that it will be seen if you can get down
to the required level of precision without further refraction.
Post by Tom Roberts
Post by Ned Latham
And yes, the above *is* speculative, but if the math produces
the correct prediction, can it be regarded as fanciful, or in
some way illegitimate? Shouldn't we keep such alternatives in
mind when theory is being tested?
Hmmmm. When testing SR it is not useful at all to "keep in mind" that
class of alternate theories mentioned above. We know this because that
class is well defined.
I see you were careful to delete the amendment to Newton's
gravitational force equation. Tell me Roberts, when was that
class of theory defined? When and by whom and how many has the
field energy function been postulated? How, indeed, does it
explain the perihelion shift?

And what is its that class's definition of wavelength in the case
of visible light?

Indeed, does it have a single coherent model of the atom?
Post by Tom Roberts
But before anyone can "keep in mind" your notions, they must be
presented in a coherent and systematic way. A bunch of USENET posts
displaying profound ignorance of basic physics simply does not induce
anyone to take anything you write seriously.
Again you utter that bald-faced lie about what I've presented.
You're not fit to shine a scientist's boots.

http://www.users.on.net/~nedlatham/Science/Physics/index.html

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